Bryanne Tait - Global Senior Director, Sustainability (Jumeirah) #006

In this episode of the Ethical Futurists Podcast, hosts James Taylor and Alison Burns sit down with Bryanne Tait, Global Senior Director of Sustainability at Jumeirah. Bryanne shares her journey from the energy sector to hospitality and discusses the various sustainability initiatives at Jumeirah, including net zero goals, reducing plastics, and promoting sustainable food and beverage options. Tune in to explore the intersection of luxury and sustainability and how Jumeirah is leading the way in creating a more ethical and sustainable future in the hospitality industry.

Sound Bites:


  1. “Sustainability and luxury are not mutually exclusive; Jumeirah is leading the way in combining both.”
  2. “Reducing plastics and promoting sustainable food options are key initiatives at Jumeirah.”
  3. “Plant-based and vegan options are in demand and part of Jumeirah’s strategy.”


Play Video about Bryanne Tait


Bryanne Tait is the Global Senior Director of Sustainability at Jumeirah, a leading luxury hospitality brand. With a background in the energy sector and extensive experience in sustainability, Bryanne leads Jumeirah’s initiatives to achieve net zero, reduce plastics, and promote sustainable food and beverage options. Her innovative approach and dedication to ethical practices are transforming the hospitality industry.


Bryanne Tait

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  • 00:00 – Introduction to Bryanne Tait and Jumeirah
  • 02:31 – Focus on Net Zero Goals, Reducing Plastics, and Sustainable Food
  • 03:49 – Addressing Water Issues in Water-Scarce Locations
  • 04:17 – Career Journey from Energy Sector to Hospitality
  • 05:41 – Bringing a Fresh Perspective to the Hospitality Industry
  • 06:53 – Complexities of Supply Chains and Sustainable Operations
  • 09:04 – Growing Demand for Plant-Based and Sustainable Food Options
  • 11:17 – Increasing Vegan and Vegetarian Menu Items
  • 13:43 – Combining Luxury with Sustainability
  • 16:08 – Using Eco-Friendly Products and Reducing the Environmental Footprint
  • 17:59 – Balancing Luxury with Sustainable Practices
  • 18:48 – Addressing Human Rights and Fair Trade
  • 19:27 – Discussing Carbon Emissions and Sustainability Standards
  • 21:06 – Book Recommendation: “No Logo” by Naomi Klein
  • 22:06 – Netflix Show Recommendation: “Eating Our Way to Extinction”
  • 23:22 – Vision for an Ethical and Sustainable Future
  • 25:40 – How to Connect with Jumeirah and Bryanne Tait

TEF006 Bryanne Tait FINAL AUDIO.txt
James Taylor 0:00
Hi, I’m James Taylor. And I’m Alison Burns. And together we are The Ethical Futurists. Now, you’re listening to The Ethical Futurists podcast where we dive in to the world of sustainability, ethics, and why these ideas today are more important than ever, ever before. Now, join us as we engage with leading thinkers, with business leaders, with academics, with entrepreneurs with investors, and changemakers. To uncover the latest ideas shaping a more ethical and sustainable future. We’re going to be covering a lot of different things in this podcast as well.

Alison Burns 0:41
Indeed, from sustainability, innovation to future trends and ESG. Our conversations

James Taylor 0:48
span a wide array of topics, including renewable energy, we’re going to be looking at Clean Tech, ethical investing,

Alison Burns 0:56
food systems, and much more. Yep,

James Taylor 0:59
in each episode, we explore really crucial issues such as carbon emissions, the circular economy, we’re going to be talking about rewilding net zero carbon goals and the future of food and energy, something else and I are really passionate about.

Alison Burns 1:16
So whether you’re interested in lab grown meat, alternative proteins, sustainable finance, or climate related risk, we’ve got you covered. Are you looking to secure a keynote speaker who’s well versed in sustainability ESG, or any of the engaging topics featured on the ethical futures podcast? Well, look no further connect with the experts at many speakers. To book your ideal speaker today.

James Taylor 1:46
Just go to That’s Alternatively, you can drop them an email at [email protected] to book the perfect speaker for your next event. Today, we are delighted to have a very special guest. Now before we get into this interview, I also have to hold our hands up we are fans of this we are in brand this company we have stayed at this company’s Hotels and Resorts. So we may be a little bit biased here possibly so just putting that out there. But today we have Bryanne Tait, who’s the Global Senior Director of Sustainability at Jumeirah. Bryanne, welcome to The Ethical Futurists podcast.

Bryanne Tait 2:31
Thank you so much for having me.

James Taylor 2:33
So share with us what’s going on in your world just now what currently has your focus? Oh, gosh,

Bryanne Tait 2:38
I wish I could sort of make it into a shorter list. But sustainability, as you know, is a really big topic. So net zero is really kind of one of our leading topics across the group within Jumeirah, as part of the Dubai Holding Group of Companies, Dubai Holding have signed up to the UAE responsible companies climate pledge, which means that we’re aiming for net zero by 2050, which is a tremendous challenge one, you know, has to sort of take that in and what it actually means. So that’s probably one of the biggest areas of focus for us. But then there’s a lot of other things that we’re we’re working on. So plastics in the hospitality industry, I mean, water bottles, and all kinds of little bits of plastic that you see across the operation. So trying to get those out of the system is a really big area of focus for a sustainable food and beverage. So what we what we serve to our guests, how we engage with them, is an important area as well. But I mean, there’s there’s numerous areas, water scarcity and water issues. I mean, ironic topic. Obviously, Dubai

James Taylor 3:39
just died when they were filming this after three days of the most water ever in rainfall here in 75 years. It’s been a crazy, crazy time as well has

Bryanne Tait 3:49
it has, but believe it or not, I mean, we’re in the desert. And regardless, I mean, we have a portfolio of 26 properties globally. And I think at least half of them are located in water scarce, you know, locations where we face tremendous issues from climate change. So we really got to think about our operations. How do we future? How do we future proof ourselves from, you know, the the risks that climate change poses, you know, across across the board, so

James Taylor 4:17
take us back? Your role is now global senior director at Jumeirah. How did you come into this role? Where were you? Were you working permanently sustainability or hospitality or mixture of both?

Bryanne Tait 4:28
Yeah, so um, I don’t come from a hospitality background. Actually, my background is in energy. I was working in the energy sector for about 10 years with Shell doing various things related to sustainability, including building, you know, utility scale wind farms, which was really, really exciting stuff. And then I spent about 10 years working in the multilateral sector and climate finance, so the World Bank and so this gave me the kind of private and public sector element of it but importantly within both of those, you know, Have those those sorts of positions or roles or organizations, I traveled a lot. So I was a consumer of the hospitality industry. So I could see it from the guest perspective, but really had no idea what was going on behind the scenes. So I think that was something that was, that was interesting, and a bit of a leap of faith, I think for both of us, for someone that’s not that’s a typical for, you know, the hospitality industry to come in with something that’s completely different. And then me not knowing the industry from the inside. So that’s kind of where I come from. I’ve always been working, I’ve got 25 years of experience with so working and sort of climate related spaces, or environmental space or sustainability in general, I guess you could say, I

James Taylor 5:41
guess one of the good things about coming in not having that hospitality background necessarily, is you’ve got a beginner’s mind, you’ve got a fresh set of eyes to the problem. Well,

Bryanne Tait 5:48
that’s indeed and I think that’s sort of what we were both thinking when we came together is how can I bring a new way of thinking are new business models or new partnerships? Or, you know, what kind of knowledge can I bring from other industries that might be applicable? You know, so energy efficiency that one might see in the textile sector? How does that play out in maybe, you know, our laundry operations in the hospitality industry, working in the agricultural sector with the World Bank? And then how does that sort of play out in our f&b industry and food supply chains and proteins and all of these kinds of things. So I got a lot of sort of exposure to other industries that I’m trying to kind of bring that and now sort of implanted in Jumeirah and see how I can bring sort of some some ideas and, you know, support the journey. It’s a journey. It’s this is not going to happen overnight. But yeah,

Alison Burns 6:38
I’m well, we are, like we said, We’re fans of Jamia and having seen it from the customer only the customer’s point of view here. But what were the things that opened up to you, when you when you crossed the Rubicon into the into the other side, right?

Bryanne Tait 6:53
Yeah, from being a guest to being on the inside of the operations? Exactly. I mean, so I kind of laugh about it, looking back on it, when I was sort of preparing for the interview. And I was a little bit sort of, like, you know, overconfident thinking a lot, this is going to be a cakewalk, because, you know, it’s about about washing your towels every day, you know, you get the little message on your, on your towel or on your pillow at nighttime that says, you know, if you don’t want your towels washed, leave them hung up or put them in the bathtub. And I thought getting rid of those little shampoo bottles and you know, the buffet, you know, especially in Dubai where we’re world famous, especially during if the buffets, precisely where food waste jumps to 80%, by the way, Ramadan, so and I can, I can share a little bit more about food waste as well, which is one thing that does keep me awake at night. And so I thought it was gonna be quite simple, you know, like, just looking at it from the outside. But that one once I got inside the operations and can see the complexity and the depths, it really highlighted for me what you don’t see, you know, the supply chains for where do you get where do we get our seafood from? And is it certified as it caught, you know, in a sustainable way? Where do we get our eggs from? Are they cage free? Are they you know, organic? Are they you know, what’s the what are some of the impacts environmentally, but then also socially, like, you know, we get asked questions by, you know, industry experts, do you know where your coffee comes from? And is it fair trade and so are the people that are employed in these industries getting a fair wage for what they’re for, for the work so it really gets into the nitty gritty of going through and I’ve got a you know, a spreadsheet of something like 30,000 rows of you know, food and beverage ingredients that have been purchased over a certain period of time and and and and just trying to understand where do we procure what we use in our operations as an example. So supply chains become very important just stuff that you just don’t even think about as a guest you just you check in you have a great night’s sleep and hopefully you get some great service by Jumeirah. I’m sure they, they treat you well. And you have a wonderful meal at our you know, in some cases Michelin star restaurants. But there’s so much that goes on behind the scenes, are you seeing

Alison Burns 9:04
a shift in demand and it’s more particularly in the in the food part because there are various reports that was your sustainability lens on various ports, you know, not disputed, but that the animal agriculture for example, is one of the main destructive elements in terms of the of the environment and any kind of move or shift away from you know, that conception that good food is linked to meat and animal agriculture. Are you seeing a shift towards more plant based 100%?

Bryanne Tait 9:37
Absolutely. Yeah. So when and so over 2023 for the first time Jumeirah we sat down and actually said, Okay, let’s put a strategy together. Up until then it was a little bit piecemeal, here and there. Last year, we spent a lot of time putting our baseline together and setting KPIs and in doing so we looked at our competitors and our peers and others The industry and what kind of KPIs they were they were using. And one of them is, in fact is actually plant based or vegan or vegetarian options on menus and a certain percentage. And so that’s become one of our KPIs is actually increasing the menu options for vegan vegetarian and plant based. A, there’s a demand for it. But be it’s also part of being a responsible supplier within the industry and then offering our guests a unique experience that, you know, good food doesn’t need to be a Wagyu beef, you know, steak or, or a, you know, sea bass tooth fish that might is on the endangered species list, for example. And so we can offer a wonderful dining experience but still have sustainable options. So absolutely. That is a shift. And that’s a shift that we’re proactively working towards and have set targets for as well. So it does, it may not be easy, but it’s something that we have to work on. And the proteins, sorry, food and beverage globally of the food industry is responsible for 45% of emissions, the majority of which is related to the beef sector. Right? Yeah, very, very. And I don’t think anyone really realizes what the impact of beef really Oh, so we have to sort of think about more plant based options,

Alison Burns 11:17
as well. It’s kind of encouraging your customers, because it’s almost like you’re taking them on that journey by them visibly seeing those options, you know, within the in front of you, you don’t have that option. Maybe we’re totally up for alternative proteins. And you mentioned that earlier, we had

James Taylor 11:35
guests on this on the series, company here in the region, which foods who make a plant based meats is p is p protein. And actually it’s amazing is unlike where from where three of us, I think from the West, and we’re used to like burgers and things so and that’s often not those kind of options. But here in the region where they eating, you have more like kebabs and kibeh and all these different things, but they’re

Alison Burns 11:57
using the pea protein to make the cultural dishes and innovation. So the end of I don’t know about you. But the innovation I think, is there for the taking in terms of the creativity of the menu, because now you’ve got all these other ingredients to be creative with. Absolutely.

Bryanne Tait 12:14
And I mean, just as sort of anecdotal sort of side note from my personal life, you know, my son and I were walking through the local grocery store when he came with me to kind of do the grocery shopping, which he likes to do every once in a while. And they were giving out samples at the end of one of the aisles of chicken nuggets. And of course, this is one of his favorite foods as a nine year old, you know, chicken nuggets are pretty high on the favorite list. And so I grabbed one gave it to him, I said here have a have a, you know, have a taste of the chicken nuggets or something. And he was like, That is amazing. It’s the best chicken nugget I’ve ever had. And it was plant based, perfect. And so you don’t necessarily notice the difference in terms of taste and quality. And sometimes it might be superior, actually. So I think it’s about educating and surprising and delight and this is part of our sort of ethos and spirit which is surprise and delight our guests and so how can we sort of engage guests on that learning journey and give them something that might surprise them and and still deliver that sort of luxurious experience? So

James Taylor 13:12
you mentioned luxury there and I think of Jumeirah as as a luxury brand and as luxury place to go and stay. We often hear like luxury and sustainability not married, not together almost the opposite end. So can you tell us about your your thoughts on that? And specifically, because here in this region, your hotel, your hotels, you have lots of different demographics that are coming into the hotel, you have a lot of younger couples are coming longer families as well from different parts. So what is that that mix that you’re seeing between luxury and sustainability? What does that mean for you?

Bryanne Tait 13:43
Yeah, I think I think that’s really, really important point. And that’s one of the things that I’m working hard to kind of mythbuster on, which is that sustainability and luxury are two mutually exclusive concepts. And they’re not necessarily and they’re absolutely they’re not. And especially when we think about the new generation, where it’s kind of like Gen Y Gen X, mostly Gen Zed and Gen Y, right, that are kind of the up and coming demographic, and they’re looking for sustainable options. But they’ve also got the budget right where they want to do they want to go luxury, but they also want it sustainable. So we’re actually seeing that shift in demographic, from the kind of like old school kind of money where we don’t care about sustainability. We’ve just got money to spend. But rather that kind of shift in the demographic is actually starting to happen. And that’s having an impact on the industry at large not just for Jumeirah, but in general, I would say the luxury category of hospitality is seeing that shift in those younger generations looking for that combination of they want experience not stuff. So they want to have an experience and they want to have a sustainable experience. So that’s where for example, we have our 2020 going on 20 years as of this year, our turtle Dubai turtle rehabilitation project where we rehabilitate endangered species of turtles, more than 2000 turtles have been rescued to date over the last 20 years. And we have touch points where guests can come and sort of get involved, you know, learn about the turtles learn about what’s causing their extinction. Why are they endangered? And what are we doing to help support the regeneration of those, those important species for our coastline biodiversity. So those this demographic, they want experiences, they want luxury, and they also want sustainability. And so those are the three things that we try to really build together under sort of one umbrella within Jumeirah.

James Taylor 15:41
And you also have this other thing going on. Shows like succession talk a lot about this quiet luxury that’s going on as well, we can have quite an under understate. And then you see that here as well, especially as the higher end hotels, where people aren’t asleep, flaunting but there’s been thought that’s gone into let’s say that hotel suite, the materials that are being used the fabrics that are being used in here as well, the cosmetic or the soaps as well. So you’ve kind of got that element. Yeah,

Bryanne Tait 16:08
absolutely. And that’s that’s been also a shift in terms of how we we put together with so so Jumeirah at like any other sort of player in the industry, but they have design or they have standard and then guidelines, right of how they operate, what products they can buy and what products they can use. For us, we also have an important wellness component of our properties. So if you go to El casa, which you mentioned earlier in our conversation, there’s a kids area, right, a kids club. And so how do we make sure that how we engage with families on wellness and family experiences, and the sustainability element of that kind of blended into it. So there is that kind of quiet, we want a retreat, we want it to be sustainable. So we think about what we’re using for the products in our rooms, the products in our spas, how are they packaged? How are we kind of reducing the footprint within these kind of little subtle touches here and there. At most of our properties, now, at least within the UAE, we’ve converted to water bottling plants. So we no longer have those plastic water bottles, you know, as you would see traveling around the region, or even globally, where you can’t drink the tap water, or you maybe shouldn’t drink the tap water or don’t want to drink tap water. We’ve installed water bottling plants where we then produce our own water and we have refillable water bottles. And so that’s something that doesn’t degrade the guest experience, right. So they still get that luxurious experience. But they get there’s, you know, reusable water bottles, and they’re not throwing out plastic water bottles, you know, four or five a day or more in some cases. So it’s sort of subtle differences, still delivering the luxurious experience for the guest. And so that that means also a lot of research and a lot of testing and a lot of trying to figure out what’s the right. Luxury.

Alison Burns 17:59
Yeah, so the statement by this because of the customers,

Bryanne Tait 18:03
I can see that is that is that is one thing that is not something that we want we are willing to compromise on is the guest experience. And so it’s a luxury brand, and we want to uphold that but still deliver something that’s sustainable. So yeah, I can

James Taylor 18:18
see that spreadsheet spreadsheet with all those things on it getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

Alison Burns 18:23
Well, actually, we’re big fans, because in back in the UK, there’s there’s been a couple of vegan hotels opened up or have vegan rooms with vegan sweets, I thought, well, we’re just gonna go in there and just test it out. So it’s not just obviously people say plant based but actually plant based as part of a vegan lifestyle where the animals aren’t being commodified. And we’re not exploiting them. But maybe that’s a bigger, a bigger thing. But yeah,

James Taylor 18:48
and also, we had to provide some guests on you’re talking about all the scope one, scope two, scope three is going on as well. So increasingly, a lot of clients there was we had, we’ve had Deloitte on here on the show, Daniel Gibbon talking about they have a what’s called a clause zero, where they say when they have an interaction with a client, you are also going to sign up to our sustainability standards as an organization accountability. Oh, that’s and so and I see a lot within the travel industry, where they’re saying the clients are saying, we need to start understanding the data from all these different trips and hotels, etc. So you’re kind of leaning into that. Yep.

Bryanne Tait 19:27
100%. And so not just do we have sort of the b2c so the business to consumer where we’ve got direct bookings from what like we talked about earlier, sort of the Gen Zed Gen Y, but also our travel partners. So the AMEX is of the world the Expedia British Airways holidays, for example, is another very important one. They recently asked if they could do a human rights impact assessment of our operations. And so we said absolutely, let’s let’s, you know, our doors are open. Let us show you how, you know we treat our workers Because what kind of accommodation we provide? You know, we have probably the best worker accommodation in Dubai, for our staff within Jumeirah, it’s it’s definitely sort of set the bar quite high. And so our travel partners are also asking for them, and it’s becoming a prerequisite. And so increasingly, I got questions from our sales and marketing teams that are like, you know, do we have any certifications at this hotel? Do we have, you know, what have we got in terms of sustainability or biodiversity programs? What can we show Have we got any, you know, materials we can share. So it is becoming a prerequisite now, almost, especially for European booking agencies, right, where this is part of, you know, a regulatory function. So it’s it either way, whether it’s, you know, demand or requirement, we’re all kind of moving in the same direction together. So it’s, it’s, yeah, it makes business sense as well.

Alison Burns 20:53
So it’s there a book that you can recommend to our listeners, that You would help to enlighten them in terms of sustainability? Or the work that you do.

Bryanne Tait 21:06
And it’s funny when I, when I, when I think about this question, I kind of struggled for a little bit, because hadn’t really read anything that really kind of jumped out at me for a long time. But that 25 years ago, I read a book called no logo by a Canadian author named Naomi Klein, great book, wonderful book. Absolutely. That changed my world, it really opened my eyes, you know, to think about what you’re buying, and what are you paying for, and the the logo versus what goes on behind that logo, right. And so no logo really kind of changed me and I knew anything that Naomi Klein writes, it’s just, you know, it’s incredible. And it’s so well researched. And, and yeah, so that, that that really changed my world, I have to say, and I would highly recommend,

James Taylor 21:51
we’ll put that on the show. If you were to the show notes for this episode, you’ll be able to find that. And also, if you go to the we’re going to have all the books recommended by our guests on the show. What about, is there a Netflix show or a podcast that you would recommend? Yep.

Speaker 1 22:06
And absolutely. And I tend to watch a lot of these because I just that it’s in my blood, I have to I just I feed off of this kind of stuff, because I just find it like I’ve always learned something. There’s never something that I watched and not learn something from so one of the more recent ones that I watched is a Netflix program called Eating Our Way To Extinction, which is really quite shocking when it comes to our food systems. And so that that would be one that I would recommend because it really it leaves you with a very strong impression about choices that we make in our food, what we put in our mouth.

Alison Burns 22:42
It’s very important. Yeah.

James Taylor 22:45
So as we start to finish up here, as well. I

Alison Burns 22:48
have one last. One last question. We’re obviously talking about sustainability. And I often feel that it’s the same people use the word sustainability almost now. Because it’s used a lot as an off the cuff throw a word, it’s like, oh, yeah, we’re being sustainable. There’s, but they don’t attach the right amount of weight responsibility that it should carry to be truly sustainable. And with that in mind, what it what does an ethical and sustainable future look like for you? A plant like a future that that will save future generations? Well,

Bryanne Tait 23:22
yeah. So this is a tough one for me. And it’s one that kind of really gets me here. And this is the kind of question where I can’t help but think of my son, right? My nine year old son, what is his world going to look like 30 years from now. And by then it’s going to be well beyond 2050, which is when we are supposed to have hit net zero, right. And there’s a sort of popular saying that I try to remind myself of is that our children do not inherit the world from us. We’re borrowing it from them, right. And so it’s important that we make sure that we take care of something that’s not really ours in the end to own or that we have a responsibility or obligation around. So I think in terms of the future, what does it look like? What are people going to do differently? What I would really hope is that, just as you maybe walk around the grocery store, and you might do a bit of price comparison, that sustainability becomes one of those key decision factors in every decision that you make every day, right? From whether or not you’re going to buy that plastic water bottle of water. Or you’re going to remember to carry around a refillable bottle in your in your bag or in your backpack or something small enough doesn’t matter what the size but just it how can we make sure that this is embedded in decision making every day especially when it comes to purchasing power because the suppliers just as Jumeirah is a supplier, the real decisions and the real power is the buyer. And so that buying power is what’s really going to drive change and so if people can vote with their dollars for the more sustainable option than I think We’ll start to see, you know, real turning of the tide when it comes to sustainability. I think, I think the last couple of years have been a watershed moment. And this year, living in Dubai, I can see it is night and day from, you know, 15 years ago when I when I first visited Dubai. And so yeah, I think the purchasing power, people thinking about sustainability with every dollar that you spend, don’t just think about cost. Think about sustainability and what that means.

James Taylor 25:28
Your dollar or your damn couch. Every dime counts. Yeah. Where’s the best place for people to go if they want to learn more about Jumeirah more about the work you’re doing around sustainability? And also maybe to connect with you as well?

Speaker 1 25:40
Yeah, sure. So, of course, is where you can find most of the information about Jumeirah. We do have a section on our website about sustainability and some sort of specific case studies that we do that we have on some of the initiatives and projects that we have going on. We’ve got our Dubai turtle rehabilitation project on Facebook, so feel free to follow them there. And you get to see every little critter that gets rescued and the journey there. And in some cases, we you know, share the tracking data of how far they went, you know, some of our turtles make it as far as Vietnam. LinkedIn also is where we tend to keep our audience updated on what we’re up to both with our colleagues and sustainability. I’m on LinkedIn, of course, I think like just about everybody. So those are probably the the easiest ways to find us when to follow us. That’s great.

James Taylor 26:33
Well, Bryanne Tait, thank you so much for being engaged in The Ethical Futurists podcast.

Speaker 1 26:38
Thank you so so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It’s been really great conversation.

James Taylor 26:43
If you’re considering making sustainability or ESG, one of the themes for your next conference, your event, or perhaps a company retreat, then why not invite Alison and myself to be your keynote speakers or event MCs. We’ve delivered really inspiring keynote programs for some of the world’s largest organizations from all different kinds of industries. Now, the Ethical Futurists keynote will take your audience on a journey to discover how the world’s most ethical and sustainable companies are really innovating in their industries. So if you’d like to learn more about booking arsenite as the ethical futures for your next event, then simply head to the, that’s the To schedule a call to discuss with us your next event. We’re delighted that you listen to this podcast. And we’d really thank you if you could just take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Also, while you’re there, why don’t give us a five star rating and leave us a review. It would really mean a lot to Allison and I so for me, James Taylor, and me, Alison burns. Thanks for listening to The Ethical Futurists podcast.